To end the Abortion debate
The only way to end the abortion debate is if we discover the general moment in embryonic evolution when a soul enters.
Since there is no generally accepted western-scientific verifiable proof of even a 'soul', this debate will linger on for generations to come.
Unless we discover new things.
41 comments:
“Let’s agree to disagree”
In this debate it’s hard to have a right and a wrong but I guess that’s why it’s a debate.
Science has proven so many things into existence and how they work such as energy but yet the is greater power and a force that can not be scientifically proven.
Abortion is a right given by laws in countries and introduced by governing systems with the findings and support of science. If such a right is available and legal in other countries, it pressurises those in countries that regard abortion as illegal to go to the black market. Humans act according to what they see and know based on other religions, countries and research.
Countries and nations are full of children who are HIV+, homeless, hungry and dying because of our religions and beliefs. Mistakes happen but they should not be the reason why innocent souls and little bodies must suffer and pay the cost.
If science says energy is everything and everything is energy, then to my opinion an embryo from the moment of developing from being a single cell, has a soul.
I believe the soul only enters the body at the time of birth. Soul's are smart and no when a body is ready to inhabit. I have memories from coming here this time that I have never lost. I knew my family long before they knew me. You can believe it or not of course.
I hear your opinion but thinking about it...When a pregnant woman gets upset, so does the unbornchild she is carrying.When a woman gets a miscarriage, doctors say the baby died. What happens to a stillborn baby!?! There was no soul at time of birth available!???
The memories carried by a soul are ancient and I agree with you 100% that souls are smart.
In your case then, Arbotion is not a bad option since "the thing" carried inside has no soul...!?!beside anatomy- why do mothers sing to their babies whilst pregnant and after giving birth the same tune relaxes the child?
personally, i have noticed that all those in support of abortion have been born....
plus it's wiped out a third of the my generation,
i'm just lucky to be a survivor
It is not up to us to decide if a baby shouldn't have a chance at life. God formed us in our mothers' wombs and knew us before we ever came out of the womb. When we remove unwanted babies from the womb, we are guilty of murder in the eyes of God. He knew that child, he had a purpose for that child. We need to trust God, not take matters into our own hands. He will provide for that child and bless the family who gets to have that child in their lives.
First of all this magical "god" you speak of, does not exist. I mean if you wanna get all technical and talk about how this thing created us bla bla we have a purpose, then how about you take into consideration the fact that there is proof for our creation. Im not gonna get into detail about that b/s b.c thats a totally different matter. Read up about big bang and evolution. Aaaanyways. I mean i respect that people have their own choice to get themselves brainwashed, sure whatever. But to actually think that you guys can take away having the choice of abortion is just another nuisance you guys cause in this world. No offence. lol. But in my opinion i think its got nothing to do with this soul b/s, how do we even know that exists? Lets not sit around and dwell on shit we dont know exists, because then we just become like the religious freaks out there. Living their lives following a bunch of rules that was told to them in a book that'll somehow lead to some great afterlife, which they aren't even aware of exists. lmao. Whatever, I think what it is is that theres a certain point that the unborn baby is at before it can sense pain i guess? Whatever it is, its the girls choice if she wants to have an abortion.
The part of the brain most closely tied to the concept of "soul," "person" and "consciousness" has been discovered. Once it is inactive, that person is legally brain dead. Brain waves are first measurable in embryo brains around 42 days from conception. I forget the name, but this might be used as proof. Personally, I think that the fetus is a viable life, if not quite a viable baby. 8 weeks onwards, a fetus displays basic baby instincts such as thumb-sucking and reaction to pain. Therefore, it is my hypothesis that the fetus should be considered human at least after the 1st trimester.
Of course, we cannot discount the sufferings of the women. Women, for the most part (I think) have abortions because they feel helpless. They feel that the stress will ruin their lives, and it often is quite probable. Whether that outweighs the existence of the contents of their womb is the problem here. Until a suitable measure for aiding these women (i.e. paid for surrogacy, invention of embryo excision/transfer, government support), illegal abortion is not a realizable goal. it will just move underground and a wave of unlicensed doctors will start accidentally killing both woman and fetus. Nor is it fair to leave woman hanging without support and a new, unplanned pregnancy.
Now to respond to the religious comments. Though many abortion critics are religious, the issue of abortion itself is not. It has to do with the point at which a fertilized egg grows into a real human. Thus, there is even less excuse to use the issue to say either that "my religion is the only way, every other one must go" nor "you deserve to be written off as stupid and brainwashed because you're religious."
First of all, I'm impressed that there hasn't been any supremely ignorant and rude remarks made here so far (except maybe one or two comments) despite this being a charged topic of debate. Second, I totally agree with J's conclusions. I personally do think that a fetus is a human being and that killing a being so that a woman can live her life as normal is not a valid excuse. However, as J is trying to say, the real issue isn't about whether or not abortion should be legal or not. The focus shouldn't be on this verbal debate, but on how the system can change so that a woman wouldn't feel the need to have an abortion. If there's no need for abortion, then there is no need to argue over this topic. Yes, this is probably the harder thing to change, but more attention should be paid on how we as a society can support women who may be facing these overwhelming difficulties in the light of a pregnancy. It would be more productive in the long run to discuss different ideas and solutions for this issue instead.
Huh.
Yeah, this makes perfect sense. I think all of the comments just muddle things up, the original statement is perfect. But, since we want to come to a conclusion right now, I have a suggestion. Because we kill completely grown people all the time, we should just consider what causes us to kill someone normally, and see if the baby deserves to die or not.
It is understandable that this proposal seems unfair, because the baby has don absolutely nothing, so even if he or she causes a lot of pain upon birth, he or she can't be blamed for it. But this same idea, the idea of blame, it also means that we don't kill prisoners or terrorists because they are dangerous, (a baby could kill a woman just as dead as a terrorist) it means we kill people solely for revenge. Please think about that before responding harshly,
Its kind of funny that "God formed us in our mothers' wombs..."
I'm pretty sure that was my dad.
Though the phenomenon of consciousness is apparent and mysterious, if you would, is it really necessary to exalt it as something divine, at the same time neglecting the impossibility to draw a strict line when deciding whether it is present at a given instance or not.
Have you ever tried complete sensory isolation for extended periods? That can give you an idea what you are without the experience of the physical world. What are we without our culture? Is a child grown up in a forest fundamentally different to a (smart) animal? What's going on with your conscience while you're asleep? Clearly, it's called unconscience, but does your conscience exist at that moment, does it wander through unknown ethereal worlds, while you snore? Hope, that sounds nonsensical to you too, because conscience is nothing but a process, a happening (a concept!!), not some solid material entitiy. Much like wind. You don't suppose wind goes to heaven when the weather is calm, right?
I equate soul with consciousness, because I don't see any other interpretation of the world 'soul' that would have any tangible meaning, not just vague and inherently personal associations.
It's surprising that, religions, which are supposed to deal with our spiritual lives, focus so much on the visceral level, as if they assign more value to the bodily tissues than our minds. Fetus brain is more primitive than a brain of a cow, yet most of us are fine with meat stakes! Did that sounds appalling to you? Uh, that's probably due to the irrational sentiment toward creatures of your own species as well as some sporadicly selected animal species (usually fluffy mammals). And that is no 'moral irrationality', that's bare irrationality.
the pineal gland has been called 'the seat of the soul'. somebody mentioned the first brain waves are measured after 42 days and i believe that coincides with when the pineal first releases DMT. the pineal has also been called the 'third eye' and ther soul-related things. it's notable to add the pineal has a lens and retina and some more eyeballish stuff.
I am a Christian It is my belief and it is supported in the Bible that God Knew us even before we were conceived. There is a natural order of things through GOD's master plan. To interfere with that is to defy GOD. I belive that GOD has a plan for everyone even before they are born.
My daughter gave birth to a little boy 17 months ago. I went with her to many of her appointments. The doctor ordered and ultra sound at 5 weeks. After seeing that little tiny being with his little heart just beating away, no one will ever convince me that abortion is not murder. There are so many alternatives for unwanted pregnancies. Raise the child yourself or put the child up for adoption to a couple who has tried so desparatley to have a baby of their own but are unable to conceive. I believe that there is a family waiting for all those children.
GOD has given everyone a choice. It is up to each person to make their own decision while on earth. I personally think it is an abomination to abort a living little fetus and throw it out like yesterdays garbage just because it may inconvenience someone for a few months.
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